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Sticky:[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 16 post(s)
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 733	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:25:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: ....ZEALOT - Zealot is arguably the most functional currently of the entire group and so it gets the least change.... In AHAC blobs only, since when did CCP adopt blobby gameplay as the baseline for balancing? .. just askin' Take a Zealot out solo or in small numbers without access to unlimited reps and links out the wazoo and it is suddenly so far below par that one is better off using something, anything, else. - Give it 25m3 drones and be done with it .. either that or tweak it so it can have a 4th mid or tracking bonus. The reason for the above is its complete lack of fight control making the paper its DPS is written on soggy like used diapers. Sacrilege looks good .. until one sees the Cerberus ... hahahahaha. That thing will be broken beyond belief, doubly so when you get around to sorting eWar and TP's get their renaissance. Fifty kilometer HAM spam with super speed missiles doing in excess of 500 dps (TP's, remember?), now add the capless ASB .. what could possibly go wrong .. - Increase Sacrilege damage bonus to 7.5% or go Khanid on its ass with a base cap boost and replacing recharge with neut/not amount Rest are about the same, better due to laxer fittings and improved medium guns .. Muninn will be tasty as either Arty sniper or Auto slugger which is good.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 734	Posted - 2013.07.19 12:24:00 - [2] - Quote David Kir wrote: ...400+ dps at any range below 40 km, instantly changeable ammo, 70+k ehp tank (sans links/boosters/environmental effects) with an awesome resist profile... And then you run into a frigate that knows just how bad HPII w. Scorch tracks and has a clue about approach .. or any ship with a spare mid (ie. essentially all non-Amarr hulls) with a TD .. or any ship with utility neut .. or ... (been there, done that .. on both sides of the fence ) Zealot is quite awesome provided it is allowed to do its thing without its numerous ~~weak~~ crippling-points being abused .. that is partly why it works so well in swarms, the individual ship has the chance to do what it does best, project hurt. Zealot remains one of, if not the, best balanced HAC as it has tremendous potential with massive holes for an enemy to exploit. But it should not be the only one with that kind of balance, either buff it to be level with the rest or introduce achilles heels on all the other hulls .. guess which will get the most traction around here.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 737	Posted - 2013.07.21 10:14:00 - [3] - Quote Assuming we manage to cause the wanted snowstorm in hell and convince Rise to discard the idea of "one bonus for all", what would work (staying within racial flavour of course)? Amarr: 2x all benefits gained from batteries. Caldari: Half cap use of all eWar? Gallente: Sig bloom free MWD use (ie. -100%) Minmatar: Double artillery tracking (and tweaking hull bonuses (not fittings) towards AC)? The MWD sig bonus sort of made sense on AFs as they have poor weapon ranges and they survive by not being hit at all due to relatively low EHP, but it makes no sense on HACs.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 737	Posted - 2013.07.21 13:08:00 - [4] - Quote Mr Doctor wrote: ...No its supposed to be specialised. One damage type is specialised. "Supposed" being the operative word. Those grand plans went out the window as far as I am concerned when they placed the Navy Omen into a niche so narrow that you'd need Tech 6-7 hulls to warrant it. The super-kiting ultra niche would have been perfect for the the T2 Zealot, but had no place on a T1 hull, yet that is where it ended up. PS: Probably more a case of CCP coming up blank when they think about the what/where/why of Amarr, having primarily Winmatar and Gallente jockeys in their staple, but even so I would not put too much faith into their willingness/ability to follow their own grand design (ie. T1 - T2 - T3 focus differences).
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 738	Posted - 2013.07.21 21:15:00 - [5] - Quote JerseyBOI 2 wrote: But that is what its about so no matter how much unicorn riding you do drones have serious disadvantages and DESERVE some unique advantages. Jeez AT comes around, teams use domis so by defacto there OP lol...herd mentality So the thread lamenting about assigned sentries in null blob warfare a few weeks ago was written by a prescient, seeing as it is only an AT phenomenon? There is very little one can do to survive an assigned sentry swarm, the one thing that comes to mind is not being there to be mauled, hardly an enticing option and a rather bad sign balance wise. Problem surfaced now (after last patch) as the amount of ships fielding full sets has increased and we now have drone damage mods/rigs. Sentry drones, and drones in general for that matter, should have capacitor values and drain from weaponry to make them vulnerable to primarily voids but also regular neuting. One should be able to jam/td/damp a full set of five by applying the eWar to any of the five (use host ships stats for ease of implementation). In return the sentry abusers/lovers can get the "return command" for their pets so one doesn't have to haul ass all over creation to gather them up.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 738	Posted - 2013.07.21 22:01:00 - [6] - Quote Allandri wrote: Who would like to see HACs (High EHP) reduced to one ship for each race and the others relegated to a new class of skirmish cruisers (High speed, lower sig)? As long as it doesn't mean the high EHP one gets to waste a bonus on it like the ludicrous +% crap .. would make sense to have a brawler and a projector, as long there is some way to mix it up at a price should one choose to (ex. HAMs or HMLs on Sac).
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 738	Posted - 2013.07.22 09:48:00 - [7] - Quote Cearain wrote: I think the navy cruisers should generally be higher speed and lower sig. But really eve is about creative fittings. Most ships shouldn't have set "roles" ccp should give them some reasonable bonuses, slots and stats for the cost and let the players figure out how to use them. That is T1 territory, T2 is supposed to take one and amplify it at the cost of other options without removing said options entirely .. question is if CCP are still playing by those guidelines as there are several T1 revisions that would be more appropriate on T2 and vice versa, Vegine wrote: ...This will make it more a closer range brawling ship viable with heavies, like heavy assault ships are suppose to be.... So HAC's are meant to be brawling high-resist fast cruisers with BS weaponry that behaves like cruiser ditto? You don't think that might, oh I don't know, break something? Droneboats have always been major points of contention, the middle ground is but a sliver of dirt and they tend to either be "OMG OP!" or "What a waste!". Revision of drones and the associated skills are no longer merely required but mandatory and should be factored into the droneboat passes if you ask me.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 738	Posted - 2013.07.22 14:56:00 - [8] - Quote raawe wrote: Nice idea, something like vaga speed bonus that was built into hull. If they do that and give another missile bonus this will be pure brawl ship Would rather the freed up bonus be neut/nos amount to deepen the target pool when brawling and give it the option of something other than secondary dps in a gang. But if HACs are really meant to be nothing more than slightly souped up T1 cruisers then all our wishes will be for naught and the majority of the ships will never see significant use, what with tier3 BCs not getting the deserved nerf and T1 cruisers being top performers in the cost/benefit index.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 740	Posted - 2013.07.23 15:07:00 - [9] - Quote Roime wrote: Well that's an A class dev response there :) Yup. He managed to dry our eyes, wipe out noses and then our asses (ie. in the correct sequence) .. now we wait and see if he reuses the now rather gross tissue or pulls a fresh one from his My Little PonyGäó man-purse.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 742	Posted - 2013.07.25 07:15:00 - [10] - Quote JerseyBOI 2 wrote: Wow. These ships are not brawlers. When you brawl you either go money, (super pimped insert-->T3, Hyperion, Vindi, Navy Mega, Maelstrom, links, pills, etc...) or you go cheap (insert-->Brutix, Vexor, Thorax, Maller, Prophecy, lol links, lol pills, etc.. ) you get the point. This is EVE 2013. Gangs are now considered <50, everyone is baiting, 9 outta 10 you wont be able to disengage. If this is your playstyle your a fool to use HACS. Not the tankiest, not the cheapest. Just because FLEETS use AHACS to great effect doesn't mean they are good. stop it. SPEED. So you want to neuter Eve's fragile evolution by making design decisions based on the current meta-game, thus ensuring that it will remain for far longer than it deserves? How was that good for the game again? You said it yourself, one uses the tool one is most likely to succeed with at a given task, you did not however say why HACs should be the tool of choice in all but the blobbiest environs (ie. old nano meta). Any "new" ship should be made with the intent of wanting to 'shake things up' and allow for the meta-game to evolve as fast as feasibly possible .. the tier3's, in all their broken glory, actually managed to do that: Went from sniping to range augmented short range to MJD'ing BS counters to .. If I was a naval architect I'd want distinct but complimentary designs (using Amarr as examples only). Role/Class bonus: Cruiser sized MJD (half spool/cycle, 75km vs. 100km) will be a much better role/class bonus than the nonsensical MWD sig reduction (unless increased to 100% ) 1. Projection and raw survivability; Zealot with a lower signature, bigger EHP/Cap pool, lower (yes, LOWER) speed and better tracking (ie. lower speed/signature, increase sensors/cap and replace cap bonus with tracking). - Nestle it with the fleet proper and prevent anything smaller than a BC from threatening the primary assets. - Good in blobs but vulnerable if solo or in homogenous small gangs (<10-15). 2. Fast interdiction, long arm of an angry God; Sacrilege with more damage, more speed but smaller EHP pool and better "small crowd" control, ex. neut amount bonus. - Anything that stays clear of the fleet (and the nestled projection platforms) while still representing a threat is what these reach out and touch. - Good solo and in small gangs but vulnerable en masse due to low'ish EHP numbers.

Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 742	Posted - 2013.07.25 10:57:00 - [11] - Quote Kane Fenris wrote: ...btw a MJD on anything than a BS would comepletely ruin their purpose on BS so HELL NO MJD on anything than bs PLZ! You are right (sort of) .. but .. MJD's on BS allows them to operate without the need of support in any significant numbers, bubbly tackle and a MJD blob is all you need, there is nothing to really threaten them. By the by, I notice you are not condemning the advocates of creating kiters that are able to cover the 100km distance in roughly the same time as MJD's by brute force speed .. an attribute that has a significantly bigger (negative) impact on Eve (ie. not just MJD blobs). Personally loathe the idea of a single class/role bonus, always has and always will, but variety must demand too much from CCP as they seem to be smitten with the concept. Would much rather have racially distinct bonuses with role bonuses within the classes and to discard the idea that what works for one class must work for all other classes that share one or two attributes (ex. AF MWD sig bonus on HACs is pretty much useless).
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 743	Posted - 2013.07.26 06:58:00 - [12] - Quote Spr09 wrote: People say that the sacrelige is bad for some reason. With how it currently stands, it will be one of the best close range E-war brawlers. HAMs will not be able to reach very far, but with it's massive capacitor and bonus to recharge rate, and pilot with decent skills will be able to run E-war mods indefinitely. 5 Launchers, and 5 medium drones will be able to do decent damage, especially with a dual bonus to missile damage. 4% armor resist per level on the amarr cruiser means an instant 20% bonus to resistances, making it harder to kill than other HACs. 4 mid slots on an armor ship means a MWD and 3 other modules, which combined with the capacitor recharge time will mean they can be running longer than other ships. It uses missile, which means that it won't be using capacitor for any lasers. So stop your complaining, without actually playing around with it yet it looks like it's a solid ship. Apart from the added drones the Sac is pretty much "as is", so all the old complaints are curiously enough cropping up again as they remain valid: - None of the cap is available for eWar as it is all destined to be slurped by repairers (plural), because .. with only 'decent' damage its only option is to outlast the enemy, all of whom do 'good' to exceptional' damage. - Potential to use five mediums means one flight of EC300 and a flight of light combat. - HAMs are rather poor when target is not AFK, so three midslots suddenly become 1 when the mandatory full tackle is added, it becomes zero when you realise that AFs are still not dying so you need a TP/extra web or when you realise that repairers need to be heated to keep up which means you need an injector/battery to prevent capping out (regen is only good as long as cap remains). * Note: it might work well with a plate/MAAR tank considering its resists, but all that does is free up the one midslot that practically all other hulls (except Zealot) has by default. What were you saying again? PS: Did you notice that its made into an almost pure missile spammer now, with -3 turrets? No more surprise butt-sex of small and fast clients by using blasters/lasers/425's (yes, that really worked ). HAC's need to outshine all other cruisers in whatever niche they are slotted into, that is the premise of T2. They all need significantly more than what has offered in the first pass.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 744	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:52:00 - [13] - Quote David Kir wrote: Give HACs bubble immunity. That's it. You now have a medium dps/tank/mobility ship that's also a great nullsec roaming platform. Good plan if one's aim is to make them primarily a null vehicle .. the MWD sig thing is bad enough, borderline discrimination of "everything not null" even .. any bubble related bonus and lowsec/highsec has enough to sue!
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 745	Posted - 2013.07.27 19:25:00 - [14] - Quote We need a niche for them, without hamstringing them when poking at stuff outside said niche, correct? Navy BCs were introduced to be the weapon of choice against any and all things smaller while still being able to punch fatties in the face .. so why not marry the range of HACs with the tracking of N.BCs .. increase speed a tad (look up the word "tad", does not mean 3k/s HACs!) and you have your kiters that double as useless snipers. Would prefer if the kiting contingent be gun based so that the only counter doesn't become 'more of the same' or 'Hvy Neuts' as was the case during the nano-age .. depends on eWar revamp I suppose. Second set of HACs are then free to be made into "drop an anvil on the enemy" brawlers or a toned down T3 or psuedo recon (ie. 1x recon bonus such as web/point range) sort of thing ... (yes, I want my Sacs to have a neut amount bonus ). * Role/Class bonuses left my brain-trust as it is not possible to find something that does not either make them comparatively OP as hell or of such limited use as to be a waste of breath.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 747	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:45:00 - [15] - Quote Battlingbean wrote: You guys seem extremely self serving, the Zealot is already considered the best HAC and you want a drone bay too? OK then I want 50 MB drones on the Eagle since it is bad and also has no drone bay. Zealot has half the midslots and the broken-as-can-be ASB's are not really viable .. they are to put it bluntly vastly different beasts. Personally abhor the "add drones to fix everything" dogma, it is frightfully close to the "CovOps cloak fixes everything" mentality, but the Zealot is severely lacking in the fight control department and if it is to have a place outside of the AHAC swarms that needs to be addressed. Now if the Sacrilege is made a demigod in the solo/small-scale arena then the need for the Zealot to have the above is somewhat redundant, but Sacrilege would need to be so dominant as to make everyone else weep for that kind separation of labour to be "fair" to Amarr and intentionally breaking the game is bad form (unless one is a Dev with a Minmatar crush that is ) Zealot already possesses that enviable projection, what it needs is application (applied damage = fight control). Tracking is where you want to go .. be it by way of a hull bonus or the introduction of the 'missing-since-forever' third pulse, I am open to both

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